Election Eve - Final thoughts

[KYCanuck]

Well, it's finally here after many months of watching the candidates both local and national make unjust judgements about each other, manipulate Sound Bites of their opponents and just plain act like a bunch of 2nd graders! The time has come to get out and vote.

I read all the email jokes (most not all that funny) and the propoganda about this person or the other and I have even seen an unusual amount of emails from people threatening to leave the country if one person or another gets elected. Just the usual Election Year crap!

In the end we all need to take a step back from the propoganda and make a decision that "you" and only you can live with. You may not win but I highly doubt anyone is going to loose. At my age (up there but not considerable) I have seen a lot of elections come and go in a couple of different countries and the result is always the same. THE WORLD AS WE KNOW IT DOES NOT END! We will go on, the economy will eventually come back and at some point in the future it will crash again. Some may pay more tax, some may pay less, the bottom line is that nobody can deliver 100% of the campaign promises they make.

The reality is that after tomorrow we will have a new President "elect" and we will all have to live with that decision, regardless of what you feel about it. What is important is that each and every one of you (me included) gives our government our full support and trust and perform our responsibility as the people to keep everything in line.

It is my opinion that neither of the candidates are out to screw you and me, regardless of all the propoganda. We may not all agree with their policies but I believe that each of them are truly trying to do the right thing for this country and either way it goes they need our support!

My wife and I are in an unfortunate position where we have not been able to apply for citizenship yet due to the amount of time we have had our residency status. It is a very helpless feeling not to be able to vote in what is going to be such an important election, but such is life and we will deal with that. In Canada last month they had less than 50% turnout for the election. That is VERY disapointing that my fellow Canadians would not take the opportunity to exercise their right to vote! DON'T LET THAT HAPPEN HERE!

I don't care which way you are going to vote because that is your right and I respect your decision, just don't waste it! Vote for us that can't. (For now anyway!)

Good Luck everyone!

[E_]

Good Post KYC!

..ps glad that is two votes not for the O... LMAO

[re3too]

Good post, KYC. (The bad part is I had to agree with E by saying that! )

Whether the elction goes the way I voted (early and often, I might add) I will try my best to support whomever is elected. If our leaders ever need prayers for wisdom (I am allowed to say that here,ain't I?), it is now. Whomever is elected will not have an easy task ahead of them.

[KYCanuck]

Good Post KYC!

..ps glad that is two votes not for the O... LMAO

Yes but if I can sway just one person!

[katie]

Good Post KYC!

..ps glad that is two votes not for the O... LMAO

Yes but if I can sway just one person!

KYCanuck, maybe you should be in a different profession Call me Red (actually you may be in politics and not know it! have you ever done any "organizing", I think a desk counts, or a closet or something...

[KYCanuck]

KYCanuck, maybe you should be in a different profession Call me Red (actually you may be in politics and not know it! have you ever done any "organizing", I think a desk counts, or a closet or something...

Nope, not a politician, I am way too opinionated and not very tolerant so I would never survive in that proffesion! I think I would know it if I was in it!

As for organizing, I am one of those anoying people that has nothing on their desk but the phone and the computer! (Actually I think I did do the closet once too! )

[Lock5]

I am a simple man, I get up, go to work, come home and try to enjoy the fruits of my labors. I think that government is broken, I think Reagan tried to fix it, but I'm not sure one man in two terms as president can fix it. I believe that government should have very little power, they should protect me from enemies foreign and domestic, they should provide an infrastructure for commerce, they should provide a basic education, they should provide limited relief for those that are struggling, provide care for children that are neglected(not the parents that are neglecting them), and they should provide a court system to follow the laws created by a legislative branch of government, and be responsable with the monies they are taxing me for. Thats all. The government should not have to save for my retirement, they should not be feeding me or housing me, they should not have to maintain my body with healthcare, they should not have to pay for my higher education, they should not be involved in my families moral decisions, they should not tell me where, when, or how I can practice religion. They should not be policing and caring for people in foriegn lands. If I want to be a drunk, not work, and be a leach upon society then I should be allowed to die from those decisions. I will be voting for the candidate that is most in line with my beliefs, because neither of these boneheads believe as I do.

[$parechange]

Right on Lock.

[katie]

As for organizing, I am one of those anoying people that has nothing on their desk but the phone and the computer! (Actually I think I did do the closet once too! )
KYCanuck




Dang KYCanuck, now that is annoying, I would categorize my desk as ummm, controlled chaos, 99% of the time I can find it if you really need me too

[KYCanuck]

Well said Lock, I'm not sure it is so much broken as out of control in regards to some of the things you mentioned. But, this is still a great country regardless of the recent events in the finance world and some of the......out of control stuff!

[KYCanuck]

Dang KYCanuck, now that is annoying, I would categorize my desk as ummm, controlled chaos, 99% of the time I can find it if you really need me too

Yep, I take a lot of grief over that! If it makes you feel better my garage is a mess!

[katie]

Dang KYCanuck, now that is annoying, I would categorize my desk as ummm, controlled chaos, 99% of the time I can find it if you really need me too

Yep, I take a lot of grief over that! If it makes you feel better my garage is a mess!

Just knowing there's hope...

[$parechange]

I am working hard at getting my garage clean so we can park both cars in it.

[KYCanuck]

I am working hard at getting my garage clean so we can park both cars in it.

WOW, let me know how that works, maybe I could try it too!

[katie]

I am working hard at getting my garage clean so we can park both cars in it.

WOW, let me know how that works, maybe I could try it too!

Actually rent a storage unit, once you are paying for that to sit empty (not really cheap), it might give you incentive.

[shocka43]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjo85WhbYqM

[The Wet Spot]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjo85WhbYqM

WOW! I LIKE that guy...if only there were more rational individuals out there like him!! Great "Rant"!!

[KYCanuck]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjo85WhbYqM

I'm sorry but that guy really doesn't know a lot of what he is talking about. He is simply twisting the words and blowing comments out of proportion like most of the Propoganda I have seen during the campaign. It just sounds like a lot of blowing smoke to me. I guess if you are on one side of the election it probably sounds pretty good, but I bet it wouldn't sound so good if it was on the other side.

It just surprises me how one sided propoganda can be appreciated when you know full well that it is nothing more than that Propoganda. I wouldn't pay attention to it any more if someone was saying the same crap about McCain because I know it is meaningless.

Oh well, to each his own!

btw, don't confuse articulate with intelligent.

[shocka43]

Dems want to raise taxes on the millionares that employ Americans. Increased corporate tax means more jobs overseas. That isn't propaganda, it is economics 101.

The guy offering a job to an American non-worker, isn't making minimum wage. There is also a good chance he is above the middle class. So some want to penalize those who want to employ Americans. Let's see how fast more of those jobs head out of the US.

My family owns a small business. First off, the Dems shotguned legislation in Ohio to raise minimum wage. And if nObama gets in, they are going to be forced to provide healthcare to their employees. Economics 101 again....The cost of their services goes up (3 bucks an hour more per employee and now health care), costs are passed onto the consumer...Consumer goes to big box stores to get the same products they were buying from my family. My family, that has run a family owned business for 80 years is out of business because of this. The math is pretty simple.

[KYCanuck]

Dems want to raise taxes on the millionares that employ Americans. Increased corporate tax means more jobs overseas. That isn't propaganda, it is economics 101.

The guy offering a job to an American non-worker, isn't making minimum wage. There is also a good chance he is above the middle class. So some want to penalize those who want to employ Americans. Let's see how fast more of those jobs head out of the US.

My family owns a small business. First off, the Dems shotguned legislation in Ohio to raise minimum wage. And if nObama gets in, they are going to be forced to provide healthcare to their employees. Economics 101 again....The cost of their services goes up (3 bucks an hour more per employee and now health care), costs are passed onto the consumer...Consumer goes to big box stores to get the same products they were buying from my family. My family, that has run a family owned business for 80 years is out of business because of this. The math is pretty simple.

For the sake of Debate!

I highly doubt (or disagree at least ) that taxes are the reason for jobs going overseas. I work for a company that has outsourced most of it's IT to companies from India (and not I am not happy about it) and the result is Millions of dollars saved. So you can provide tax breaks for our company all you want it is not going get them to keep those jobs here. When you take into account the millions in wages alone then add the benefits and the infrastructure (Buildings, phones, internet, etc.) to support these people. It's a bunch of talk to say you are going to keep the jobs here through tax breaks but the financial facts don't work!
It's not the companies like your families that are sourcing jobs out of the Country it is large corporations and the government can't compete with tax cuts.

I understand about the minimum wage issue and I feel for your family and other businesses like them but the minimum wage in this country is pretty much criminal! There is a cost with getting that up and you are correct we would all have to pay that in the form of inflation, but it has been left alone way too long and not kept up with the times.

In the end something that either one of the candidates (Parties excluded) do, is going to cost us somewhere. We will all argue for the direction that will not affect us directly as we see it. To be honest with the Dem Tax plan it is a moot point for me, I don't get anything out of it, so there are other things I need to look at.

Honestly Shocka, I appreciate your comments, it's a good debate and it's good to hear all sides. You have always come across as someone with good facts and an intelligent outlook!

[shocka43]

For the sake of Debate!

I highly doubt (or disagree at least ) that taxes are the reason for jobs going overseas. I work for a company that has outsourced most of it's IT to companies from India (and not I am not happy about it) and the result is Millions of dollars saved. So you can provide tax breaks for our company all you want it is not going get them to keep those jobs here. When you take into account the millions in wages alone then add the benefits and the infrastructure (Buildings, phones, internet, etc.) to support these people. It's a bunch of talk to say you are going to keep the jobs here through tax breaks but the financial facts don't work!
It's not the companies like your families that are sourcing jobs out of the Country it is large corporations and the government can't compete with tax cuts.

We'll have to agree to disagree on this one. Why are jobs going elsewhere? The common answer is because the "company" can make more money elsewhere. But why? When you have the second highest corporate tax in the WORLD...you aren't going to attract jobs. When you tax the "wealthy" that employ middle America and those a hair under middle America, you aren't going to blow up the job market. Corporate tax earns billions. A portion of those billions will definitely provide capital infrastructure. Once you have capital, it is peanuts to keep that original capital going. For example...Small family business owns their buildings, properties, lots, etc....Over time. Original infrastructure is costly, no matter where you go in the world. Staffing, training, manpower, wages, benefits, improvements, and taxes are what you annually deal with. Not buildings, data lines, equipment...

If companies weren't put over the edge, they wouldn't have left in the first place. We will never know what it could have been, and with a corporate tax at the rate it is, we will never know. Taxes to run government programs do not help a nation. They make them dependent.

I understand about the minimum wage issue and I feel for your family and other businesses like them but the minimum wage in this country is pretty much criminal! There is a cost with getting that up and you are correct we would all have to pay that in the form of inflation, but it has been left alone way too long and not kept up with the times.

I agree, it is low. But there are consequences for not preparing yourself for your future. My grandmother raised three children in a single parent home in the 50's and early 60's when single parent homes weren't common. It took two jobs for her to provide for her family. She did it, and there isn't an excuse for it not happening as often now. She refused to go on government assistance. You aren't going to hear anyone in the majority of these people today turning down anything. Dependency on the government. Please show me in the Constitution where government programs and entitlements were listed.

In the end something that either one of the candidates (Parties excluded) do, is going to cost us somewhere. We will all argue for the direction that will not affect us directly as we see it. To be honest with the Dem Tax plan it is a moot point for me, I don't get anything out of it, so there are other things I need to look at.

Would you rather prosper and let the others figure it out for themselves and learn something from their mistakes, or let the government bring you down to the level they need you at to achieve their goals? You don't make a living handing out government programs without someone paying for them. That someone is us. I didn't bust my hump to support those who failed to apply themselves at an early age. If I knew the government would pay my bills, give me health care, pay for my college, give me roof over my head, etc....Maybe I should have just stayed home on school days. Was I pushed? Yes. Did I have some skills that helped with college? Yes. There are many that don't take advantage of opportunities. There wasn't a kid in my HS that didn't have the opportunity to succeed. It was their choice not to, and when I see them out and about I feel bad they didn't take their skills and potential and use it to their benefit. Skipping class and smoking dope all day didn't prepare them for a bright future. Government interaction isn't going to motivate people to get of their asses. It creates dependency which is a revolving door. Welfare wouldn't be a generational way of life if this wasn't the mentality.

It is deeper than Dem and Repub...It is about changing the mindset of individual and corporate America. Until we change this, we will promote generations of dependency and this Country will no longer be what it was or what it is today. This country can't succeed in this fashion.

And by the way....I didn't see the ACORN bus driving by my house in the burbs. Oh, but that's right, I had the initiative to be at the polls an hour early this morning.

[Lock5]

Well it looks like the ones voting for handouts have beaten those of us voting against them, it's a sad day in America for working folks.

[shocka43]

Well it looks like the ones voting for handouts have beaten those of us voting against them, it's a sad day in America for working folks.

Maybe we should quit working and see what happens to their tax base to support these programs? Lets see how far we get as a Nation then. It's coming folks. Maybe this page will still be up and running in 20 years. E can pull this thread up from the depths of thread hell and I can say. "Told ya so."

[Lock5]

When close to 40% of Americans don't pay any taxes, you don't have to have but 11% of the folks that do pay them vote for you. I think the media got him that 11% plus some extras. It will prove to be a very sad day in America, I just hope I still have a job when he leaves, he will not be friendly to corporate America.

[DMS]

Regardless of winners or losers, it sure was nice to watch the news without all those political commericals

[The Wet Spot]

I'm still in shock...I'm just sick to my stomach...I just don't have anything else to say right now...

[Lock5]

"For president, John McCain defeated Barack Obama in Anderson County 6,884 to 3,461".

That's the way we vote here in my little piece of the world.

[E_]

Well I may not like the decision and I really think McCain could have a gripe about what happened in PA and I SURE HOPE Obama condems it fiercly.

I think that the first 4 years (except for us gun owners) will be ok and I think anything HAS to be better than right now. In the first four years he will have to do what he thinks will keep the nation happy (se he can get re-elected) thus things might might be ok...

After that all bets are off...

So for now I am going to get behind him and hope for the best. That is about all we can do...

[KYCanuck]

I am not going to gloat today because that is not what this is about. The decision was made and in a very decisive fashion.
I understand that many of you are disapointed in the results, but I sincerly hope that the decision ends up being the right one and one that will help get this country no the right track.

Shocka and others, I hope you understand that you and I are not that different and I think we all want the same things for ourselves our families and our country, we just sometimes have a different outlook on the approach or the potential results. The fact is, that we all want the same things and our differences is what makes this country (as well as the country I came from) great, because it is called Democracy. Without differing opinions and different outlooks we would never survive because we see and react to what is closest to us in our lives. It is difficult to see someone elses point of view when you don't understand their circumstances or background. The fact that we can discuss it is great, what is more important is that we can learn from it. I love the debates because I learn about other perspectives that I may not have considered and hopefully that makes me smarter.

Enuf said!

[The Wet Spot]

I've never been so ashamed to be from Ohio...They say that no replublican has ever won without OH...and McCain didn't get it this time...

Nothing went right in OH...Driehaus the idiot won out over Chabot, Issue 6 failed, and in my little neck of the woods 2 very unnecessary levies passed...why did I bother...

I think I'll just go back to bed and pretend for a few more hours that we haven't just royally screwed ourselves...well, at least us working citizens...the lowlifes are happy...

[jpatton]

If I were McCain I would have demanded a recount....after the fiasco with ACORN. I forget what state it was, but there were more people registered to vote than the total population combined.

Oh well. Time to move on. The "people" have spoken. I don't agree with his policies, but Obama is still my president-elect.

[WaterWings]

I think that the first 4 years (except for us gun owners) will be ok

So for now I am going to get behind him and hope for the best. That is about all we can do...

Well for your first statement and gun control the only thing that comes to my mind is
...."When They Pry It From My Cold Dead Hands."

Your last statement.......YEP. Gonna get behind him and the greatest country in world.
It will all work out in the end.
{Funny, I'm not a big gun advocate or member of the NRA. Its just one of those rights that the writers of the constitution thought important....... and so do I. }

[The Wet Spot]

I just hope the republicans actually use this next four years to find a candidate that will actually stand up and prevail against this idiot when he runs for re-election...
In the meantime, I'm just gonna live in silent protest and try and keep my hard earned money from being given to some unemployed crack head...

[katie]

Well WetSpot, speaking of crackheads... did anyone see the interview with OPRAH last evening??? I'm sure this was only shown once (it was live), but the media was asking did you vote today and she stated she did her voting early but went to her voting poll because she wanted to be part of the "party" happening today!!! Then on to say that it just happened to be across the street from a Rehab Center... inside the poll was 5 or 6 women, from across the street, Oprah said that was great, "how long have you been clean", (one answered) about a week, oprah says..... that's great!, we'll take a week! I'm sure this will not be shown again....

This I am afraid is the whole attitude. I made a statement earlier of my division of parties, I feel proud it had nothing to do with Race or Handouts.

[KYCanuck]

We'll have to agree to disagree on this one. Why are jobs going elsewhere? The common answer is because the "company" can make more money elsewhere. But why? When you have the second highest corporate tax in the WORLD...you aren't going to attract jobs. When you tax the "wealthy" that employ middle America and those a hair under middle America, you aren't going to blow up the job market. Corporate tax earns billions. A portion of those billions will definitely provide capital infrastructure. Once you have capital, it is peanuts to keep that original capital going. For example...Small family business owns their buildings, properties, lots, etc....Over time. Original infrastructure is costly, no matter where you go in the world. Staffing, training, manpower, wages, benefits, improvements, and taxes are what you annually deal with. Not buildings, data lines, equipment...

If companies weren't put over the edge, they wouldn't have left in the first place. We will never know what it could have been, and with a corporate tax at the rate it is, we will never know. Taxes to run government programs do not help a nation. They make them dependent.

Believe me when I say that I am in FULL support of offering tax breaks for companies who to keep work in this Country and even more so for companies like your families. I think where we have a disconnect is with the Corporations that are now global. In the case of our company we are owned by a company in France and they are not going to change their strategy due to tax policy. The facts are that there is up to a 70% difference in wages from countries and companies like ours are going to take advantage of that. Unfortunately if you cut taxes somewhere the revenue has to come from somewhere else. Both Obama's and McCain's tax plans are not realistic and can't be funded so I doubt that most of it will go through either way.

I agree, it is low. But there are consequences for not preparing yourself for your future. My grandmother raised three children in a single parent home in the 50's and early 60's when single parent homes weren't common. It took two jobs for her to provide for her family. She did it, and there isn't an excuse for it not happening as often now. She refused to go on government assistance. You aren't going to hear anyone in the majority of these people today turning down anything. Dependency on the government. Please show me in the Constitution where government programs and entitlements were listed.

I was raised with the same values so I agree 100% with what you say here, but (There is always one of these! ) the fact is there there will always be a need for a minimum wage, for entry level jobs (our children) as well as the fact that you are always going to have a certain number of people who are not as ambitious as you and me and that is what makes the world go around. The reality is we cannot continue to keep these people so far below the poverty level because that hurts ALL of us with the standard of living. This is one of those greater good issues that we all hate to deal with but it is a fact of life. You can't sweep it under the rug.

Would you rather prosper and let the others figure it out for themselves and learn something from their mistakes, or let the government bring you down to the level they need you at to achieve their goals? You don't make a living handing out government programs without someone paying for them. That someone is us. I didn't bust my hump to support those who failed to apply themselves at an early age. If I knew the government would pay my bills, give me health care, pay for my college, give me roof over my head, etc....Maybe I should have just stayed home on school days. Was I pushed? Yes. Did I have some skills that helped with college? Yes. There are many that don't take advantage of opportunities. There wasn't a kid in my HS that didn't have the opportunity to succeed. It was their choice not to, and when I see them out and about I feel bad they didn't take their skills and potential and use it to their benefit. Skipping class and smoking dope all day didn't prepare them for a bright future. Government interaction isn't going to motivate people to get of their asses. It creates dependency which is a revolving door. Welfare wouldn't be a generational way of life if this wasn't the mentality.

This is something that I have some experience with from living in Canada and it is not what it seems. Canada is still a country where you can be successful and prosper regardless of what you might have heard. There are still those people who are able to start thier own business and be successful and there are people who work hard and there are people who don't, it is really not much different than here. The government does not bring everyone down to an equal level as you would expect or might anticipate.
Please don't confuse Canada and their policies of being a weak country, they are not! The standard of living here in the US is high (Top 20 in the world) and it is basically the same or better in Canada and this is accomplished with many of the policies that you believe will ruin this country.
There are some survey's that state the most livable cities and Canada has 3 in the top ten, the US has none in the top ten. The 'Mercer's Quality of living Survey 2008' (by City) shows the highest scoring city in the US at #27 Canada has 5 that are higher than that.
I'm not trying to say Canada is better, because I probably wouldn't be here if it was better I feel I have more opportunity here and I am quite happy with my standard of living, I am just trying to prove a point that the policies that everyone's so afraid of do not ruin the country and will not hurt your standard of living. It will actually improve it in some ways.

OK, now I am just rambling ! Good debate though!

[katie]

shocka43, your statement below is "spot-on"..... can't wait to see how our new pres. holds up his "work hard and earn it prophecy!"


There wasn't a kid in my HS that didn't have the opportunity to succeed. It was their choice not to, and when I see them out and about I feel bad they didn't take their skills and potential and use it to their benefit. Skipping class and smoking dope all day didn't prepare them for a bright future. Government interaction isn't going to motivate people to get of their asses. It creates dependency which is a revolving door. Welfare wouldn't be a generational way of life if this wasn't the mentality.

[KYCanuck]

shocka43, your statement below is "spot-on"..... can't wait to see how our new pres. holds up his "work hard and earn it prophecy!"


There wasn't a kid in my HS that didn't have the opportunity to succeed. It was their choice not to, and when I see them out and about I feel bad they didn't take their skills and potential and use it to their benefit. Skipping class and smoking dope all day didn't prepare them for a bright future. Government interaction isn't going to motivate people to get of their asses. It creates dependency which is a revolving door. Welfare wouldn't be a generational way of life if this wasn't the mentality.

Personally I hope his own accomplishments.....which I am sure were not achieved from sitting on his hands......will work it's way through his policies! My opinion is that he is not someone who rewards laziness. JMO

[katie]

I agree with you KYCanuck, at least he's got his pants up where they belong! that's a big start!

[djcardinal]

Wow - Well I didn't expect to see too much optomism here about the changes that "The American People" put forth last night.

First let me say where its really not relavent, but I did not vote for Barak, nor John McCain. Up and till the time I voted there were too many uncertanties for me. Namely for Barak was his experience, or lack there of. For John I couldn't get passed Sarah Palin. She was dangerous to me. And I don't think I was alone, a poll I saw this morning indicated its many reason why uncertain voters couldn't vote for McCain. How strange is it that I, a pretty hard core Democrat would vote for a Republican but pretty much democrat the rest of the ticket.

What I find odd about this thread is the amount of doomsday I read. No one knows what will happen. I honestly don't think it can get much worse. A few things I think wont be happening is he wont be taking away anyones guns, or adding national healthcare right away (I don't see how he'll ever be able to do it actually).

Who was the last prsident to decrease Welfare benfits? President Bill Clinton.

Which president actually created more government in his terms than any other in recent past? President George W Bush.

Odd that two main stereotypes of the party was actually inversive of normal "attributes" if you will.

This election and the next 4 years will be all about economy. The American people have decided they want change. They want to give the other guys a chance. I will say about Barak Obama, he did mobilize a huge swarm of new voters, and they weren't all black either. They were young, female, black, latino, white, straight, gay, rich, and poor.

My biggest worry is everytime I watch a presidential speech, or him visting someplace as our nations leader, I fear for his life and the trama that would be laid upon our country if that horrible day comes. I have already heard from my racist friends, and the awful things they have said, I pray to God that doesn't happen to him, his family, and our country.

It is a historic day, whether it would have been a woman or a African American Man, the unprecidented reality of this is still just now sitting in with many Americans. Even though I didn't vote for either major candidate, I can appreciate the history that was made last night.

DJ

[katie]

DJ,
I too fear for our safety from within our own countrymen should the worst happen, I wish that on no-one. Does anyone remember the LA riots??? not a pretty thought...

History was made last night, regardless of race or sex dammit - HELLO MEDIA, we have a new president. That is the history I would like to hear.

As of this morning, you can buy U.S. Mint Silver Dollars - Barrack Obama - "colored edition" supposedly only available on QVC, d@mn, our U.S. Mint works fast...

[shocka43]

DJ,

That's a major part of the problem. Bush didn't act like a Conservative; therefore, he ruined d@mn near any chance for the incumbent party to stick around.

Clinton's arguments are a tough one on both sides, since he had a Republican controlled Congress for 6 years. It is the same argument on the Bush side. Republicans for a portion and Dems for 2 years. Who to blame?

Independent voters were scared of Bush like items. While McCain wasn't a Bush, he didn't separate himself from this. People said he voted with Bush on 98 percent of agenda items...Most stick within their party, so this is a moot point.

KY,

We both come from hard work, as many of us do. I agree that there are needs for all socioeconomic statuses. Everyone has their place. But thinking that "wealth equalization" and programs paid for by working class America is going to bring about the change to have these lower economic classes elevated to where they don't rely on the government is crazy. Remember the bird feeder analogy for illegal immigration, it is the same for benefit hording Americans...

"I bought a bird feeder. I hung it on my back porch and filled it with birdseed. What a beauty of a bird feeder it was, as I filled it lovingly with seed. Within a week we had hundreds of birds taking advantage of the continuous flow of free and easily accessible food.

But then the birds started building nests in the boards of the patio, above the table, and next to the barbecue. Then came the poop! It was everywhere, on the patio tile, the chairs, the table…everywhere!

Then some of the birds turned mean. They would dive bomb me and try to peck me even though I had fed them out of my own pocket. The other birds were boisterous and loud. They sat on the feeder and squawked and screamed at all hours of the day and night and demanded that I fill it when it got low on food.

After a while, I couldn’t even sit on my own back porch anymore. So I took down the bird feeder and in three days the birds were gone. I cleaned up their mess and took down the many nests they had built all over the patio.

Soon, the back yard was like it used to be…quiet, serene and no one demanding their rights to a free meal."

This is a vicious cycle until something is done. Government enhancements aren't going to change the mentality of these people. Hard times will.

[Pac22]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6DrA2G1T ... re=related

[shocka43]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6DrA2G1T ... re=related

Sad isn't it. Those are the brains that we are dealing with here.

[Pac22]

VERY sad.

[Lock5]

Tax his land,
Tax his bed,
Tax the table
At which he's fed.

Tax his tractor,
Tax his mule,
Teach him taxes
Are the rule.

Tax his work,
Tax his pay,
He works for peanuts
Anyway!

Tax his cow,
Tax his goat,
Tax his pants,
Tax his coat.

Tax his ties,
Tax his shirt,
Tax his work,
Tax his dirt.

Tax his tobacco,
Tax his drink,
Tax him if he
Tries to think.

Tax his cigars,
Tax his beers,
If he cries,
Then his tears.

Tax his car,
Tax his gas,
Find other ways
To tax his a$$.
Tax all he has
Then let him know
That you won't be done
Till he has no dough.

When he screams and hollers,
Then tax him some more,
Tax him till
He's good and sore.

Then tax his coffin,
Tax his grave,
Tax the sod in
Which he's laid.

Put these words
Upon his tomb,
"Taxes drove me to my doom..."

When he's gone,
Do not relax,
Its time to apply
The inheritance tax.

Accounts Receivable Tax
Building Permit Tax
CDL license Tax
Cigarette Tax
Corporate Income Tax
Dog License Tax
Excise Taxes
Federal Income Tax
Federal Unemployment Tax (FUTA)
Fishing License Tax
Food License Tax
Fuel Permit Tax
Gasoline Tax (42 cents per gallon)
Gross Receipts Tax
Hunting License Tax
Inheritance Tax
Inventory Tax
IRS Interest Charges IRS Penalties (tax on top of tax)
Liquor Tax
Luxury Taxes
Marriage License Tax
Medicare Tax
Personal Property Tax
Property Tax
Real Estate Tax
Recreational Vehicle Tax
Service Charge Tax
Road Usage Tax
Social Security Tax
Sales Tax
School Tax
State Income Tax
State Unemployment Tax (SUTA)
Telephone Federal Excise Tax
Telephone Federal Universal Service Fee Tax
Telephone Federal, State and Local Surcharge Taxes
Telephone Minimum Usage Surcharge Tax
Telephone Recurring and Non-recurring Charges
Telephone State and Local Tax
Telephone Usage Charge Tax
Utility Taxes
Vehicle License Registration Tax
Vehicle Sales Tax
Watercraft Registration Tax
Well Permit Tax
Workers Compensation Tax

STILL THINK THIS IS FUNNY?

Not one of these taxes existed 100 years ago, and our nation was the most prosperous in the world.

We had absolutely no national debt, had the largest middle class in the world, and Mom stayed home to raise the kids.

What in the hell happened? Can you spell "politicians!"

And I still have to "press 1" for English!?!?!?!?

[jpatton]

How about this...

[KYCanuck]

Not one of these taxes existed 100 years ago, and our nation was the most prosperous in the world.
We had absolutely no national debt, had the largest middle class in the world, and Mom stayed home to raise the kids.
What in the hell happened? Can you spell "politicians!"

Unfortunately I just don't have the willpower to leave this one alone!

I have seen this email before and every time I read it it makes my blood boil. I deleted most of the post because it just doesn't bear repeating.

We all complain about having to pay taxes, he|| I hate paying taxes as much as annyone here but the FACT is that these taxes PAY for all the wonderful things we enjoy every day!

We have the best network of roads and highways of any country in the world, we have the best military, the best border security the best police forces, we have schools where us and our children can get an education, we have relief when we suffer from a natural disater, and on, and on, and on, and on...........

Does anyone here REALLY think that this stuff is free? We wouldn't have the beautiful lake that we enjoy every year without taxes!

You are correct, these taxes didn't exist 100 years ago, but neither did almost EVERYTHING we enjoy now, 100 years later.

It is unbelievebly short sighted and ignorant to blame this on the politicians, it is "us" that did this to ourselves, we WANT all the things that the Taxes pay for, not just the politicians! We want to be able to turn the tap in our house and get clean water, we want to be able to flush our toilets and have it go somewhere to be processed and not into our back yards and we want to be able to drive to the lake every weekend and enjoy it's beauty and safety.

Just take away one of the things that we hold dear which these taxes pay for and every one on here myself included would scream bloody murder and say it our RIGHT!

We complain about socialist policies where we don't want anyone getting anything for nothing, then in the same breath complain about paying for the things we have! Who is going to pay for it?

In my opinion, there is many, many countries in the world which HAVE NOT evolved in the last 100 years and I would be willing to bet that their taxes are REAL low. Maybe that is the place for those who don't want to pay taxes.
For me, I will stay right here, continue to pay taxes and enjoy the freedom and luxuries that they afford me!

Whew! I think I broke a couple of keys on my keyboard with this one!
I have to go lie down!

[E_]

I have to agree with KYC here... At least in the spirit however I would prefer a flat tax more like our neighbor to the north has... (if I understand it correctly - it is on all goods that you buy but your paycheck etc are not taxed?)

[KYCanuck]

I have to agree with KYC here... At least in the spirit however I would prefer a flat tax more like our neighbor to the north has... (if I understand it correctly - it is on all goods that you buy but your paycheck etc are not taxed?)

Unfortunately that isn't true, your wages are still taxed, pretty much at a similar rate to that here in the US. The Tax you are referring to is the "Goods and Services Tax" or GST.
The GST was put into place to replace the "Federal Tax" which was included in all goods and services. This was a hidden tax that was at a rate of 7 or 11% based on the goods or services provided. (I'm not sure if the same thing exists in the US or not) Keep in mind that this was all over and above the "Provincial" tax or State Tax as you would know it.
The intent with the implementation of the GST was to eliminate the distinction between the 7 & 11% and to flatten the Federal Tax Rate. It also eliminated many loop holes where companies were able to get an exemption for this Federal Tax. It also allowed better management of the Tax and it's exemptions. The expemtions are around government programs, for example if you are selling goods to a Hospital, they are expempt from paying it. There are many more reasons for the implementation of this.

The unfortunate part was that when this was implemented, all businesses were supposed to reduce the price my the amount of the Federal Tax normally included and then add the new GST at the end of the transaction. Unfortunately most companies left their prices the same and simply started charging the GST on top. This caused a false inflation across the country! This was supposed to be controled and policed but as usual it was very shortsighted to believe that they could do this. All in all it was a good decision by the government as far as cost to manage the tax, but of course most people simply saw it as another way to get them!

All in all Canadians pay a Wage Tax similar to that of American's. They pay Provicial (State) taxes like many here do, they pay City Taxes, County Taxes (Although they are not all called Counties), etc. etc. They pay a monthly Health allowance not that much different to what some of here pay for medical, except that there is no Co-Pays or hidden charges like we have.

Where the Canadian government makes their taxes are on things like Fuel (Huge percentage is tax), Alcohol and Cigarettes.

[djcardinal]

A National Sales Tax is really the only way to go.

Poor people pay less taxes (if at all) and thats understandable. But, some of those people, waste their govt money on whatever, if we had a national sales tax, short of drugs and hookers, it will get taxed and funnel back through the system

Middle Class, Small business owners, honestly I know many (including me) that try to avoid as many taxes as possible. Some people go to extremes, and are probably as bad as any other class. With a National Sales tax, again not an issue.

Upper class, Lets face it, we are talking the 1M + here. With their taste and need for having the latest and greatest (HEE HEE), its not really a huge issue if we had a National Sales Tax. And these people aren't exactly the most willing to pay their taxes either.

Regardless of Class, a National Sales Tax is the only way for it to be absolutely fair. Things like Gas, Utilities, Tourist tax districts (Hotel, Rental), Airline Taxes, Registrations, Property Taxes, etc would still be there and serve their purpose as they are. Since there isn't really a sales tax on those ammenties. But the poor will be their things, and other classes will as well. Obviously the ratio of cost/tax will increase with income and tastes. The cool thing is prices should fall as businesses also are able to drop their prices some. I think it would work out.

As a democrat this is one thing I liked about John McCain, although he never said he would do it, he was warm to the idea. I think it would take an administration and a kick-azz finacial team to lay it all out and put together a very impressive lobby to at least suggest this.

But I doubt it ever happens.

DJ

[KYCanuck]

I agree with you somewhat DJ, but the issue with that is that you can't rid yourself of the State Taxes in the process. The States need to be able to manage some of their own budgets to an extent, otherwise the infrastructure at the Federal level would be unmanageble, especially in a country the size of the US and with the amount of States to manage.

As for the discussion of adding a Federal tax, it's not a bad idea, however you have to be careful in implementing a tax like this. As I mentioned in my post above the implementation of something like this can cause a false inflation overnight. Even though Canada was replacing 2 hidden Federal taxes with one at a lower rate it still caused this inflationary reaction, that was never recovered.
I doubt this country could handle that impact with the current economic conditions, but maybe in better times.

Don't tell Lock5 that we are talking about another tax!

[Lock5]

You have got me all wrong. I understand that there has to be taxes, I think the government should be much, MUCH, smaller. I'll give one example, why should they take money from you to feed someone who decides every morning that he is just going to sit around the house today and do nothing? Why should they take money from me to pay for his house? Why should they take money from DJ to pay for his healthcare? I am all for paying taxes to pave roads, protect me from enemies foriegn and domestic, and help those that are struggling get back to their feet. I am not for a creating a whole class of people that are dependant upon the government for their every need. If you chose to do nothing with your life. I have no problem letting you die from those decisions. Welfare should be a ladder to self suffeciency not an escalator to a lifestyle. The flat tax or fair tax is the only way to even the playing field, as DJ eluded to, there are 7000 pages to the tax code, if you are smart enough to create/earn millions, then you are darn sure smart enough to find the loopholes in those 7000 pages. The only way to generate a real tax is to impose it upon the spendings, not the earnings. I'll sign off now and go earn some more money so that the government will have enough tax revenue to study the sperm counts of the elk in Montana.

[shocka43]

We do need taxes to provide for things that we can't do alone. The Military, National Infrastructure, etc. I can't build a watertower, lay lines, or build roads. I can't defend our borders, protect our streets, and put out fires alone. Taxes need to pay for this. But is is getting out of hand.

You failed to mention the death tax that is eminent.

So...I get my income, utilites, purchases, home, property, vehicles, land, invstments, etc...taxed my entire life...

Now they want to tax me again when I die after I have paid taxes on all of my estate, penalizing my family that gets the return on my smart investing in these things that I have alread paid taxes on? Give me a break.

[E_]

ahhh a heated debate yet all are still getting along..


... I LOVE it.

[Lock5]

ahhh a heated debate yet all are still getting along..


... I LOVE it.

Who would have thunk it?

[KYCanuck]

I'll sign off now and go earn some more money so that the government will have enough tax revenue to study the sperm counts of the elk in Montana.

That is probably so true that it's not funny!

I didn't mean it as a personal afront to you, I just really hate that little poem and the 100 year chit because we know that it's not valid or relevant.

I don't disagree that there are a LOT of places that can be cut and we could probably start with the Elk thing!

[KYCanuck]

We do need taxes to provide for things that we can't do alone. The Military, National Infrastructure, etc. I can't build a watertower, lay lines, or build roads. I can't defend our borders, protect our streets, and put out fires alone. Taxes need to pay for this. But is is getting out of hand.

You failed to mention the death tax that is eminent.

So...I get my income, utilites, purchases, home, property, vehicles, land, invstments, etc...taxed my entire life...

Now they want to tax me again when I die after I have paid taxes on all of my estate, penalizing my family that gets the return on my smart investing in these things that I have alread paid taxes on? Give me a break.

No argument from me but I think there are some fine lines here and for each of us there will be another or ten that have an argument why it is something that we need. I just hope the proverbial "Scalpal" is sharp this time!

I wish we had all the answers, at least we are all passionate about it!

[KYCanuck]

ahhh a heated debate yet all are still getting along..


... I LOVE it.

Who would have thunk it?

I can just feel the love!

[shocka43]

ahhh a heated debate yet all are still getting along..


... I LOVE it.

Who would have thunk it?

I can just feel the love!

I can, I am not banned.....

[Nervous Wreck]

It ain't over! Don't give up just yet. Congress actually runs this Country, and they can be ousted in two years. Be sure and let them know WE are keeping a watchful eye on them.

They need to know that they work 'for us'. That is "THE CHANGE" we need!!

[jpatton]

I can, I am not banned.....

...Yet!

just kidding.