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Actually, I thought I was watching the Comedy Hour.

Never saw so much Squirming and Hedging in My Life !

No One is suggesting that they could set up an Advisory committee of Honda and Toyota Experts to Lend Advice

I was on the news this morning that the average salary at GM for UAW members is $78/hour plus benefits. Toyota employees are at $35/hour plus benefits. What's wrong here?

Yep, think someone needs to step on their toes about restructuring? Hmmmmm

FasterThanYou wrote:I was on the news this morning that the average salary at GM for UAW members is $78/hour plus benefits. Toyota employees are at $35/hour plus benefits. What's wrong here?

78 bucks an hour for a job that someone with no education can do. Makes every former college kid here happy about spending the coin they did, eh....

shocka43 wrote:

FasterThanYou wrote:I was on the news this morning that the average salary at GM for UAW members is $78/hour plus benefits. Toyota employees are at $35/hour plus benefits. What's wrong here?

78 bucks an hour for a job that someone with no education can do. Makes every former college kid here happy about spending the coin they did, eh....

Yep, sure makes you think doesn't it! Of course at least we have the satisfaction of working hard for our coin!

FasterThanYou wrote:I was on the news this morning that the average salary at GM for UAW members is $78/hour plus benefits.

WOW!!! Is that plus benefits??? I could almost, maybe , perhaps imagine $78/ hour with all the benefits and perks included, but $78 plus. That's over $160,000 a year. Man, I should have stayed there in 1968 when I left GM for what I thought was a better job.

FasterThanYou wrote:I was on the news this morning that the average salary at GM for UAW members is $78/hour plus benefits. Toyota employees are at $35/hour plus benefits. What's wrong here?

I had no idea it was up to that much!!! I can remember when the employees and unions were b*tching about only makin $25/hr!!!! Oh yeah, let's help all of these people out.... One word... GREED, hell, I would have worked the lines for $50.

The figures show that some 10 Years ago the cost for Chrysler Plant employees was over $80. at that time.

Sharon and I visit the Deroit Auto show every Few Years and Many of the Banners Read as Follows


( U.A.W. Jeep ) ( U.A.W. Ford )

When the Tail WAGS the Dog. Check the Consumer reports for the past 20 years. Had a big GM. Guy tell me ! Consumer reports ? What's that ?

I think that is the voice of the ( CUSTOMER ) with the $$$$$ out buying American Made, Non Union Produced, American assembled Vehicles Made in Ohio , Ky , Indiana and Texas Plus ---------

Hmmmmm. so the Carola we purchased for our daughter in 1993 that got and still gets 40 MPG. Has 300 plus thousand Miles and runs like a Swiss Clock and boy are they glad to own this Vehicle now.

CUt the pay to the going rate. That is what I meant before about mandating certain things. I don't want to see the us lose 5 million jobs so I want to see the autoindustry helped. I think most of their help could come from kicking unfair union deals.

...you will be taken from $78 to $35 sure it is a cut but it is better than the $0 you were going to get in 3 months if we did not fix this.


...you will be take from $3mil a year to $250k plus a bounus. Sure it is a cut but you can deal with it or we will appoint a new VP.

I think there needs to be a fix and I think it is sad it has to come from the govt.

I have seen many Union Votes that did close the Company. Now did the workers that thought they WORKED for the Union Keep getting a check ???? Heck No. and the Unions were then off terrorizing another Industry after the dues quite coming in.


Look at CAT. Filed bankruptcy, broke the Union. Company re structured and is now a very strong company.

GMC. will only be making cars and trucks 5 years from now IF they file Bankruptcy, North American division! and breaking the Unions Like Cat did.

Detroit bailout: 7 key questions


CNNMoney - By Chris Isidore - November 18, 2008

1. What do the automakers want?
The automakers are asking for about $25 billion in loans to help them survive until 2010. Advocates for a bailout argue that if the Big Three can hang on until then, they'll be in position to be competitive long-term.

That's because billions of dollars in annual savings won in the 2007 labor agreement with the United Auto Workers union kick in that year, including shifting the responsibility for retirees' health care costs to union-controlled trust funds.

What's more, it's likely that car sales will pick up again by 2010 and that plant closings between now and then will bring the Big Three's capacity in line with this demand.

2. How many jobs are at stake?
GM (GM, Fortune 500) has about 120,000 U.S. employees. Ford (F, Fortune 500) has about 80,000 and closely-held Chrysler LLC has about 66,000.

In addition, the three automakers have about 14,000 U.S. dealerships that between them employ another 740,000 workers.

The suppliers used by the Big Three also employ an estimated 610,000 people.

Add that up and you have more than 1.6 million jobs tied to the auto industry.

3. What happens if there's no bailout?
GM risks running out of money later this year or early in 2009 without a bailout.

GM burned through $6.9 billion during the third quarter, leaving it with only $16 billion on hand as of Sept. 30. But it needs $11 billion to $14 billion to continue normal operations.

Ford and Chrysler have more cash relative to their needs, mostly from money they borrowed prior to the current credit crunch.

But each of those automakers could also run out of cash during 2009 without federal assistance.

4. What happens if an automaker goes bankrupt?
There are two types of corporate bankruptcy under U.S. law.

Chapter 11 allows a company to continue to operate as it sheds debts and contracts it can not afford.

In Chapter 7 bankruptcy, the company goes out of business fairly rapidly as its assets are sold off to try to satisfy its creditors.

5. What are advantages of an automaker going into bankruptcy?
Some argue that bankruptcy judges will be able to force the automakers to shed brands and dealerships as well as get the Big Three out of labor contracts they can not afford.

Other U.S. industries, such as steel companies and airlines, have used bankruptcy in the past to return to profitability without putting federal dollars at risk.

6. What are the arguments against a Chapter 11 bankruptcy?
Given the current credit crunch, many experts question whether automakers would be able to get necessary financing from lenders to help them during the reorganization process.

There are also doubts whether consumers would buy new vehicles from a bankrupt automaker due to concerns over their resale value and warranty. In effect, an automaker that files for Chapter 11 could eventually wind up going out of business anyway.

7. What are some of the other broader economic impacts if an automaker goes out of business?
Nearly 2 million Americans get their health insurance directly from one of the Big Three automakers. Most of them would lose that coverage if their company goes out of business. A failure of one of the Big Three could also cause a string of bankruptcies among suppliers.

And beyond the job losses at the automakers, dealerships and suppliers, media companies that generate a lot of revenue from auto advertising as well as retailers in towns where plants are located could also have to cut many jobs. The Center for Automotive Research, a Michigan think tank that supports the bailout, estimates that between 1.4 million and 1.7 million jobs indirectly tied to the Big Three would be lost in the first year following widespread auto failures.

Source: http://money.cnn.com/2008/11/18/news/co ... sion=20081...






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http://www.indystar.com/article/2008111 ... /811180390

The above story is in todays Indianapolis Star. Looks like our Japanese counterparts were busy over the years being proactive, rather then reactive as we have consistently seen from Detroit. It's amazing how just 2 generations ago we were able to out-produce the entire world making the equipment it took to win a world war involving Japan and another world-renowned engineering nation, Germany. That said, if the UAW doesn't want to make some additional concessions to help Detroit compete I say let the UAW buy the Big 3 and learn what life is really like.

The employee's have to accept part of the blame. They use the unions to get themselves to this level of pay and a lot of the bullying comes from one employee to the other.

My Brother-in-law in Canada (many years ago) worked for a food distribution company, very big in Canada. They used to strike every time they had an opportunity and the reason was always the same higher wages. The funny part was that he would come home from the grocery store and complain about the price of groceries and how much they had gone up! Many times I pointed out that the increase in the price of groceries was going towards the huge raise he had just gotten due to the pending strike! He just couldnt understand that!

Several years later, they had reached a wage that was out of the ballpark with the industry but they still went after more. I had a conversation with him and stated the facts and asked him if he still wanted to fight for this. At first he fought for another increase, but as time went on I finally got through to him and he started to understand what I was saying. Unfortunately it was too late, the company just simply gave in, promised the workers everything they asked for, no questions asked. That day a light bulb went off in his head and he realized what was happening. (I just smiled) The week after the contract was signed, the company closed the doors and went out of business! They opened elsewhere under several different company names and guess which people were not even considered for a job!

He went from that to driving a garbage truck, which I believe he is still doing today. (Don't know, my sister divorced him!)

I think the problem with the Big 3 is that none of the employees there think that it can go away. I hate to see that kind of job loss as well, but they REALLY need a reality check!

Spare Change wrote:Chapter 11 allows a company to continue to operate as it sheds debts and contracts it can not afford.

This is what needs to happen. The contracts of the 80's that enable the "job banks" would be scrapped. This means that 700+ million dollars would be saved per year.

When this does happen, those schmucks that are sitting in the "job banks" can be rehired at wages that are uniform across the country for the field they are in.

I have strong ties to a local dealership and know many that work there. Unfortunately, downsizing needs to happen across the board when it comes to your low volume dealers. This dealership is a top performer in the country, so they would in most instances be a lock for staying on the board. I can name one Honda dealership in the Dayton metro area and one Toyota dealership. I can name over half a dozen Ford/GM. If the foreign markets are able to push more units, more efficiently, than the US makers....Well, there is a portion of your reasons for failure.

The really sad part is that GM sold more units than any other company out there. They need to learn what a balance sheet looks like.

I just read that they have dropped Tiger Woods as their spokesperson ($7Million/yr). That is a start, now about those corporate jets.......

Big Three CEO's....

"Look at me...I'm driving a 'hybrid' to the Hill this time."

Nervous Wreck wrote:Big Three CEO's....

"Look at me...I'm driving a 'hybrid' to the Hill this time."

520 miles in a car!! What is this world coming to?? And they are going to sell "some" of the jets!