LakeCumberlandBoaters.com

I have seen for the past 35 Plus years Honda, Toyota and others Build, market and think Smarter. Tapping into what the consumers want and need.

No one is talking about all of the Jobs created by these auto makers such as Honda and the $$$$$ created, generated in central Ohio. Than as the Toyota Plant in Ky. Has !!!

What are YOUR Thoughts concerning Americas Big Three ????

I think their quality is back over the other models except may Nissan. I would have rather seen money to bail them out (with exceptions about having to bring jobs back to the US) than bail out the a-holes playing with other peoples money on Wall Street and corporate banks.

This is a tough one, as I am not for any sort of bailout.

There are two schools of thought. One, help them out like we did the banks. Considering the big 3 create many jobs directly and indirectly.

And the second thought, no...

I have come to the assessment of no for the time being.

The bailout of banks in order to make sure the credit market didn't freeze up had to happen. Had the government not forced these lenders to give out loans, the bailout wouldn't have been needed. The government created the animal by creating penalties for banks that didn't offer the loans. The government wanted to make the "American Dream" attainable. Owning a car wasn't part of this and the government didn't force GM to do outlandish things.

Now you have companies with poor business practices wanting a piece of the cake too that weren't forced to change their major business module by government like the lenders were. The flipside is the argument that they have fallen victim to increased corporate taxes and they have been subject to new R&D based on fuel efficient technologies. But this isn't new, as vehicles have evolved over time.

Where do we draw the line? Individuals and businesses have had to deal with increased operating costs in the form of expenses and taxes. WE, individuals, have budgeted for this, many corporations have not. The Dayton area has been hit harder than many areas in regards to GM/Dilphi based closings. I know how important the jobs are to our area. The bailout of GM still doesn't guarantee that these companies don't send more jobs elsewhere, merge with Chrysler so the fat cats reap the benefits, or completely fold. We can't keep putting baind-aids on gushing wounds. Corporate bailouts are just that. The executives reaping the benefits don't learn lessons very well.

I'm with you Shocka, No bailouts for anyone. There wasnt anyone standing at Keenlands front gate offering to give me back the grand I lost by making a bad decission on the wrong horse. I'd rather walk miles through blinding snow rather than ask someone for a ride. I always heard, you made the bed now lay in it. If someone makes a bad investment they should suffer the consequences. Maybe it will teach them a lesson. What kinda of lesson are they learning when someone gives 'em a handout? It teaches 'em to beg when things get tough instead of gettin' off there arse, work your tail off and make a better choice next time. I'm all for helping people when theyNEED it, but a hand out aint it. Dont pay CEO billions just cause their CEO's. Pay 'em a performance bonus. If you get the job done, a paid vacation. If you drop the ball....back of the class.JMO

When I lived in Michigan 25 years ago people working on the assembly line at GM were makiing 50K+. That was 25 years ago!!! I believe the only way they will make it is through a complete restructuring but the UAW is going to fight it all the way.

I say no deal, as much as I want the big 3 to succeed, I think a bailout is just a band-aid. They need a complete restructuring, the big three have got alot more problems than poor auto sales. Toyota in G-town has proved that you don't have to pay $65 per hour and guarentee a lifetime of wages to attract a workforce that will be productive. I have said it before, my garage will never have a foriegn nameplate in it, but it's time to let the chips fall where they need to. The American auto industry will be better in the long run. They will not fail, they will be bought, re-structured, returned to Profitability, then resold as smaller more productive units.

I am a union guy, but my union is needed and operates much differently than the UAW.

I am not going to get into the argument of saying they aren't needed, because they are, as I know the history of unions, but they were the best and the worst thing for the auto industry.

The UAW is going to put themselves out of business.

I will say get rid of the FOP when we start demanding triple pay on weekends and holidays.

How many Autos, Truck listed in the , Top 10 vehicles, Consumer reports the Past 20 years have been Made by UAW workers ? Not many

20 years ago more then the imports, 15 not many, 2 years ago... Several are creeping back.

shocka43 wrote:

The UAW is going to put themselves out of business.

They did that years ago but couldn't see the forest for the trees.

How could the big three stay competitive with the Japanese in price and quality with the gap in wages and benifits between UAW workers and non union manufactures? The answer is simple.....THEY COULDN'T. And the result was lost market share to the foreign labels due to their higher quality vehicles and lower sticker price. While the Japanese labels were sinking money into R&D, the big three was sinking it into higher wages and benifits.

The last I heard the US automakers have about $1100 per car in retired workers benefits. That is something the imports just don't have, that $1100 has to go somewhere in the pricing of cars, PERIOD. So if the big three are to make it, their business model is going to have to be more in line with the imports,. I don't see how that gets done unless they are allowed to fail and then restructure completely. A bailout will just be a bubble gum patch on a sinking ship. Useing my bubble gum, that is tired, very, very, tired.

When you have a guy making 70 large a year for insert bolt here, screw nut here...you have a problem.

I'll appologize upfront if this has been said, I haven't read through all the posts, but the American Auto industry needs to help itself. I am all for treating your employees fairly, I beleive the unions have their place but they have also lead to some of the devastation the industry is now experiencing. I live in Louisville, I have MANY friends and some family members who work at Ford. Some of these folks depended on the OT to keep up their lifestyle and once the OT was cut out they found themselves in serious fanancial trouble. Now there is not enough work to work all shifts so what has been happening is employees work 1 of every 3 wks, the 2 wks off they drew 90% of their pay. Now we have the possiblity of even working less than one of 3 wks.........and the workers will still receive 90% of their pay. I'll admit I'm not a mathematician, heck not even sure if Im spelling it right.......but this kind of math doesnt add up to me!

When you look at unions across the board, those with the right to strike have better short term successes in contracts, but no long term stability.

Public safety unions, for example, obviously are not able to strike. While I look out for the best interests of my people, I see the picture as a whole. If we left it up to local governments to see that we were treated well, it would be the worst profession in the world. While managers and elected officials get their yearly raises and bonuses, our end would hear the "We don't have any money" crap. While you see it in the private sector, mediators and/or arbitrators decide our fate versus us walking off the job to obtain our goals.

Unions have their place, but as said before....If working conditions and safety goals are met in the auto industry, you aren't getting any sympathy from me if they don't cut a raise to guys making 70 large for a job that a trained monkey can do. Not to offend anyone who does a job in that fashion, but if your on the job training consists of a foreman saying this is how you do it and by the end of the shift you have the task down, there isn't much to it.

The government didn't put the auto industry in the toilet, they did it to themselves. The government did however put the housing market in the toilet.

The day we let all our large manufacturing go overseas is the day taking us over will be like taking candy from a big fat baby.

A bailout plan for the auto companies should be this:

Restore tarrifs on unfair trade of other vehicles
Do not allow other auto manufacturers selling in the US to not have to abide by the same rules etc that the big 3 do.
Mandate executive salaries and practices temporarily
Fix unfair union laws that allow companies that do take care of their employees from being unfairly bullied by the Union system. (kinda like the crazy lawsuits that are now capped)

LC addict wrote:Some of these folks depended on the OT to keep up their lifestyle and once the OT was cut out they found themselves in serious fanancial trouble.

That's why you don't maintain your lifestyle on OT.

Your buddies aren't the only industry like this...we have a handful of officers that are like that. OT whores just to pay their monthly bills. You don't base a lifestyle that is in someone else's hands. ie. ability for overtime that can cease at a moments notice, unless you plan on being in a world of hurt when the OT dries up and you still have that monthly payment.

I work a ton of OT because I like toys. OT goes into the slush fund and toys are paid for without monthly payments. OT dries up and I am not behind the 8 ball. Unfortunately some don't think that way and end up loosing a home or a vehicle because of the reoccurring theme these days, poor fiscal responsibility.

E_HILLMAN wrote:The day we let all our large manufacturing go overseas is the day taking us over will be like taking candy from a big fat baby.

A bailout plan for the auto companies should be this:

Restore tarrifs on unfair trade of other vehicles
Do not allow other auto manufacturers selling in the US to not have to abide by the same rules etc that the big 3 do.
Mandate executive salaries and practices temporarily
Fix unfair union laws that allow companies that do take care of their employees from being unfairly bullied by the Union system. (kinda like the crazy lawsuits that are now capped)

Lower the corporate taxes these companies pay. I don't like the idea of mandating anything on the auto industry, unless they are receiving funds from the govt. Unfortunately, there isn't any recourse if the auto industry doesn't follow these mandates after a bail out.

If they want to make changes to help businesses out, make changes that don't require government mandates or anything that has "money out" from the govt. If taxes are changed, yes the government looses income, but doesn't loose money out of their already depleted "checking" account.

shocka43 wrote:
I work a ton of OT because I like toys. OT goes into the slush fund and toys are paid for without monthly payments. OT dries up and I am not behind the 8 ball. Unfortunately some don't think that way and end up loosing a home or a vehicle because of the reoccurring theme these days, poor fiscal responsibility.

You wont get an arguement out of me on this, I've never understood why people put their selves in this position. I put the majority of my OT toward paying extra principle on they toys we have........not buying more.

I am a believer that unions help put us in this situation. I took a tour of Cummins Engine and noticed several employees playing cards. I ask why they were not working, I was told that they had completed their quota for the day that the union had set. These folks were making $30+ per hour setting around doing nothing. Now I need someone to tell me that this hasn't contributed to their financial problems.

I built a couple buildings for Toyota. Each construction project Toyota does is built with all union labor on the stipulation that the UAW does not get involved after the plant opens. The employees are paid fairly and safety standards are upheld.

Americans uneasy over bailout for automakers
By Matthew Bigg Matthew Bigg Mon Nov 17, 4:31 am ET

ATLANTA (Reuters) – As Congress debates legislation to help struggling automakers on Monday, many Americans said they were uneasy with the plan, arguing that while it may save jobs, it would reward companies for pursuing bad business practices.

In interviews from New York to Los Angeles, everyday Americans said the proposed $25 billion rescue plan was unfair and said it would make it harder to reform U.S. automakers.

"They need to restructure. If they get bailed out they are not going to do it," said Eric Smith, a paint contractor interviewed in Chamblee, Georgia, on the outskirts of Atlanta.

Democrats crafted the plan to help General Motors Corp, Ford Motor Co and Chrysler LLC, and hope to pass it during a post-election session of Congress starting on Monday.

The three companies, whose gas-guzzling vehicles have been losing market share to Japanese rivals for years, are lobbying for the money to help them restructure and survive the economic downturn.

The stakes rose on Friday, when Goldman Sachs suspended its rating on GM and said the automaker needs at least $22 billion in aid. Goldman also said it would be difficult for Chrysler to survive without help.

All three companies said Chapter 11 bankruptcy restructuring was not an option.

In interviews, many people said all of the options facing the automakers had drawbacks, including the proposed bailout.

Well that article was onesided...

Gass Guzzling? Chevy has some of the most fuel efficient vehicles out and some have been for years. Some people only listen to the commercials.

You guys are going to love this....SpareChange...Have a look....

http://www.detnews.com/2005/autosinside ... 351179.htm

shocka43 wrote:You guys are going to love this....SpareChange...Have a look....

http://www.detnews.com/2005/autosinside ... 351179.htm

Wow, that says it all. How do I find a gig like that. When I owned my business, if I made bad decisions, I PAID the price. Do you think I could have asked for a bailout? NO. I agree with letting them fall on their faces. Someone will come in a clean up the mess and get them back to the Big 3 of the past.

I think the gov't shoud do what they can...................within reason..........to keep jobs in the US, but the auto industry also needs to become accountable.

I don't agree with a "Bailout" for the big 3 but I would support assitance.

The way this should be done is to provide assistance which is directly proportinate to the amount of restructuring they accomplish. For example, if they take $100M out of thier base cost, then provide them $100M of assistance to match. This would provide them incentive to make the necessary restructuring changes they need to be able to stay afloat. Unfortunately they cannot accomplish all the restructuring they need to do overnight, this is going to take time. I agree with providing assitance as long as they prove that they are prepared to help themselves!

My reason for this stance is that this country just simply cannot afford this loss of jobs at this time. We are in enough trouble right now and we need to stop the bleeding. I believe that the amount of job loss due to the closing of the big three is under estimated, as more of us than we would like to think have some tie to the auto industry. Maybe not directly but indirectly in a way that would affect us.

JMO

Sorry, I do not agree with any kind of "assistance" that involves the "taxpayers money". One thing I have not seen in the news, forums or anywhere else is.... what about these people who have been making "great money" for the job they are or are not (job banks) doing??? No different than all of these construction workers building like mad dogs, the number of new homes sitting empty (never sold) today is incredible.... any of you guys "put back" any money to help in case of a tragedy????

There will be no-one to help us little guys out if we screw up our own financial situation.... let the gov't SIEZE the plants until the private sector can buy it, or hell, make ownership part of the benefits package!!!!! Workers back to work at a decent d@mn pay, kick out the UAW, and get the scale back to the way it should be....

Shoka, I made note of this somewhere. Again I say NO UNIONS
They have put a gun to every car manufacturer in the US. Great for the guys who want the money, but don't like to work. I say let the companies file bankrupcy and reorganize with out the unions and rid themselves of the top end mega money makers. Pay the CEO on performance and not just to show up and make bad decisions. Think about it. CEO walks in makes a decision that cost the company milloions and walks away saying OH WELL! I just can't wait for Christmas so I get my bonus. Or how about a company goes bankrupt, but the CEO gets his parting package of $7 mil. Go figure. Citygroup, just did the same thing, layed off 53,000 and still giving bonuses to the top dogs. I say to hell with them. AIG, got money spent 1/2 mil on a party we paid for. What he hell is wrong with our government? If Obama wants my respect, he better put some penalty on these bastards that are milking mine and your tax money.

Spare Change wrote:Shoka, I made note of this somewhere. Again I say NO UNIONS
They have put a gun to every car manufacturer in the US. Great for the guys who want the money, but don't like to work. I say let the companies file bankrupcy and reorganize with out the unions and rid themselves of the top end mega money makers. Pay the CEO on performance and not just to show up and make bad decisions. Think about it. CEO walks in makes a decision that cost the company milloions and walks away saying OH WELL! I just can't wait for Christmas so I get my bonus. Or how about a company goes bankrupt, but the CEO gets his parting package of $7 mil. Go figure. Citygroup, just did the same thing, layed off 53,000 and still giving bonuses to the top dogs. I say to hell with them. AIG, got money spent 1/2 mil on a party we paid for. What he hell is wrong with our government? If Obama wants my respect, he better put some penalty on these bastards that are milking mine and your tax money.

Yup to everything Spare has said. Definately NO UNIONS!!

katie wrote: Sorry, I do not agree with any kind of "assistance" that involves the "taxpayers money". One thing I have not seen in the news, forums or anywhere else is.... what about these people who have been making "great money" for the job they are or are not (job banks) doing??? No different than all of these construction workers building like mad dogs, the number of new homes sitting empty (never sold) today is incredible.... any of you guys "put back" any money to help in case of a tragedy????

There will be no-one to help us little guys out if we screw up our own financial situation.... let the gov't SIEZE the plants until the private sector can buy it, or hell, make ownership part of the benefits package!!!!! Workers back to work at a decent d@mn pay, kick out the UAW, and get the scale back to the way it should be....

C'mon now katie, don't hold back! I do see your point!

Nervous Wreck wrote:

Spare Change wrote:Shoka, I made note of this somewhere. Again I say NO UNIONS
They have put a gun to every car manufacturer in the US. Great for the guys who want the money, but don't like to work. I say let the companies file bankrupcy and reorganize with out the unions and rid themselves of the top end mega money makers. Pay the CEO on performance and not just to show up and make bad decisions. Think about it. CEO walks in makes a decision that cost the company milloions and walks away saying OH WELL! I just can't wait for Christmas so I get my bonus. Or how about a company goes bankrupt, but the CEO gets his parting package of $7 mil. Go figure. Citygroup, just did the same thing, layed off 53,000 and still giving bonuses to the top dogs. I say to hell with them. AIG, got money spent 1/2 mil on a party we paid for. What he hell is wrong with our government? If Obama wants my respect, he better put some penalty on these bastards that are milking mine and your tax money.

Yup to everything Spare has said. Definately NO UNIONS!!

I agree, Unions are destroying Canada as we speak, they are everywhere!

KYCanuck.

Word. Sometimes you just gotta get it out! I mean really, how many times does the American public have to get screwed over before they say... hey, wait a minute, that's my money your giving to those people!!! Mind you, I don't mind sharing, I just wanna be the one to choose who the heck I'm donating to!!

First and foremost, save the Police, Firemen and Teachers, and in that order. None of them get enough "respect". I'll bet one of those big "white shirts" would be first to call on the first two if in trouble and blame the teacher if his kid flunked school!

Well I am glad your not holding it in, that can cause indigestion!

You are correct though, there are a LOT of other good causes for the money.

To be honest, I am a little afraid of what is going on. At some point it is going to catch up to people like me and I really don't like those prospects. I have a certain amount of tolerance for the "common good" scenario just because I know I am part of that common good, but I agree that you have to draw the line somewhere.

I guess I can't spend all day worrying about it!

I tend to agree with Shocka's analysis.
Having been in the financial services industry for a number of years I am opposed to bailing out poor decisions and unreasonable risks taken by over-paid, arrogant people. We are heading down a road towards socialism and it does not have a happy ending. The rest of the world is moving towards capitalism.
If John McCain had stuck to his principals and opposed the first round of bailouts, he would be the President Elect today.

Sitting back and watching the ClintonBammmma do the thing.

Enjoy and Buy a Honda !!!! Made in Ohio by Ohio Farmers

Or maybe A TOYOTA MADE BY REDECKS THAT live, and drive FOREVER


CAT. did it, So can the Big 3 if they want to survive in America

YEah buy a Honda and Toyota so one day they can be our masters and buy our country out from under us...

Oh wait too late that is already what is happening....

Our country is kinda like Christopher Columbus' trip to "discover" America. Didnt know where he was going, didnt know where he was when he got here, didnt know where he'd been when he got back to where he started.

E_HILLMAN wrote:YEah buy a Honda and Toyota so one day they can be our masters and buy our country out from under us...

Oh wait too late that is already what is happening....

Many Americans would be shocked at just how "much" of america is "owned" by other countries!!!!!!!!! (this includes land, not just businesses)

It works both ways, what all do Americans and American companies own around the world

when American companies or land comes up for sale, It amounts to Whom will pay the Price

This is a load of crap if you ask me! These guys are claiming that they will accept a salary of $1 but that is not the point! Mulally is claimed to have a base salary of $2M but got over $21M in compensation last year. I assume he is going to accept the salary cut but it doesn't say anything about the other compensation. There is somemention regarding salaries but it isn't clear how they are going to do that.

And GM said they are only going to sell 4 of their 7 (Yes 7) Corporate Jets! These guys just don't seem to live in the same world as the ret of us!

http://money.cnn.com/2008/12/02/news/co ... 2008120210

These guys just don't seem to live in the same world as the rest of us!





This is the whole problem KYCanuck, and most of them have been out of the "real world" so long or maybe never really lived in it before, that they just need to have their a$$ fired!

We're an automotive supplier... slowly watching our customers' move their plants to Mexico, China, France, etc. Since the big 3 are calling this bailout request a "Loan"... I think that Congress should seriously consider helping them out. Stipulation number 1: In order to receive ANY assistance / loans - they must move EVERY foreign plant back to American soil. Not just one Plant... every Plant! Two major benefits... The american government can earn interest on the loans - and we can put our hard working "American Citizens" back to work!

I like the sound of that HP!!

HP TOO! wrote:We're an automotive supplier... slowly watching our customers' move their plants to Mexico, China, France, etc. Since the big 3 are calling this bailout request a "Loan"... I think that Congress should seriously consider helping them out. Stipulation number 1: In order to receive ANY assistance / loans - they must move EVERY foreign plant back to American soil. Not just one Plant... every Plant! Two major benefits... The american government can earn interest on the loans - and we can put our hard working "American Citizens" back to work!

HP, I agree with you but, unless they restructure all their other costs the only result would be vehicles that we could not afford! Thier moving production off shore is thier feable attempt at maintaining their overpriced work force, etc. here in the US (and Canada).
Bring all the production back to the US, pay an average wage of $78 per hour and pay out the huge pensions and the result is pricing themselves out of the market. I would love to see the jobs and infratructure come back here as much as you but unless they fix the root cause problem, it isn't going to make any difference.

That is what I meant a couple weeks ago when I said the govt needs to actually step in and suspend unions for at least 5 years and regulate their power after that... They are not unions in some cases they are mob bosses,.

E_HILLMAN wrote: They are not unions in some cases they are mob bosses,.

Nervous Wreck wrote:

E_HILLMAN wrote: They are not unions in some cases they are mob bosses,.

Right on

Dolphin wrote:

Nervous Wreck wrote:

E_HILLMAN wrote: They are not unions in some cases they are mob bosses,.

Right on

read all the post I have made. If you listened to the news this morning, the unions said they will make some concessions, but they are not willing to stop payments for those who show up and don't work. That is just one of many they said no to. Unions are costing the big 3 $30billion a year. Stop the BS and BOOM there ya have the bail out money. Did I mention that I don't like union's?

I think they are needed on some cases but today's unions for the most part need to be reigned in...

How Embarrassing !!!

A 16, Million Plus executive spending 9 hours driving across PA. in a Chevy

For what he has taken from the company, he should have walked!