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OK, here we go on this topic and keep in mind that Shocka43 is responsible because he tempted me to bring this up!

I have had the pleasure to experience both sides of this issue living in Canada most of my life and living in the US for the last 7 1/2 years and all I can say is that BOTH systems need some help. Neither one is perfect.

I have had the luxury of being able to afford and have access to relatively inexpensive healthcare here in the US and frankly it has been cheaper for me than it was in Canada! Yes for those of you who believe the crap that is fed to you, health care in Canada is NOT free! What I will say is that the care and the facilities available to me here in Northern KY have been excellent and I have no complaints. Keep in mind that I am fairly healthy.

As for Canada there is a root cause problem to the health care there. The goverment decided that the solution to control costs was to hit the doctors! This was a huge mistake. What they did was cap salleries of the doctors in all categories, GP and specialists alike. The effect of this move was to change the perception of potential doctors where they ask, why would I stay in school for an additional 5 - 10 years when there is a cap on the salery I can make? The answer is that it reduced the amount of new doctors coming into the field. Now there is a huge shortage of doctors for the most part in Canada.
Frankly the health care system in Canada worked fairly well, the hospitals are nice enough considering what they are there for and the technology is up to date and in some cases world class or better. The National Health Care policy itself is NOT the problem, it is simply the catalyst to allow the government to put the caps on the doctors.

I know everyone hears all the horror stories about people lined up for surgery and not getting the care they need and I can tell you that most of this is bull. Of course in the larger cities. like Toronto, Montreal, etc. there are waiting lists, but this is not much different than the large cities in the US. My father is haveing elective surgery for a VERY serious condition in a week and he did NOT have to wait!

There is a common theme between Canada and the US that I have learned through experience. The US is simply larger as far as population and is larger as far as products and services. There is more selection in the US than in Canada and that is nothinng more than a population issue! I know this as a fact.

I don't support the government having 100% control over health care because it provides them the opportunity to screw it up, BUT I also don't think we can afford to continue down the path of 100% private health care because it will come around to bite us in the a--. If you don't think "you" the people with some money are not already paying for the people who can't afford it you are fooling yourself.

We should ALL get the best health care or we diminish our standard of living. I don't know how to accomplish this but I believe there is a solution somewhere between the two options. Maybe people from Canada and the US should get together and discuss the best of both and see if there is some middle ground!

Have at it folks!

KYCanuck wrote:The answer is that it reduced the amount of new doctors coming into the field. Now there is a huge shortage of doctors for the most part in Canada.

That was a big worry I have had...

Yep, it was a bad decision and drove the wrong behavior. I really wish there was a better solution to controlling cost rather than going after the doctors, but I don't know what that is.

Personally I think the drug companies are a good starting point. I would bet that they have as many lobbyists on Capital Hill as most of the Oil companies!

Sorry it took me so long to chime in here KY...been a busy week.

I always ask the question, "Name one thing the government took control of that isn't more jacked up now, than it was before..." Military is one fair exception, but they can even screw up that at times....

I believe something needs to be done as well, due to the ridiculous costs. But I am one that believes competition drives down cost, not government intervention. While slight intervention in the form of "reform" with competition, is the gov't getting involved, they aren't running the show.

I had a discussion the other day with a friend of mine who is an ATF agent that has health care under the federal system. He also happens to have an nObama sign in his front yard, which was a surprise, as I have known him for years and he never supported that side. He said that the health care under nObama would essentially be what he has as a 6 figure federal gov't employee. My next question was, "What have these people done to deserve what you have, after you have prepared yourself through education and sacrifice when it comes to health care?" He didn't have an answer other than, "something has to be done". He is right in that something needs to be done, but it isn't by handing out lucrative benefits with no compensation other than being a citizen.

I would be fairly bent out of shape if an American non-worker was afforded the same health care that we have to negotiate into our contract every 3 years in exchange for wages.

I am not saying that people shouldn't be assisted with health care, as life is precious, no matter who you are. But there are other ways to accomplish the same things.

How many billions are spent in ER's every year for treatment of things that aren't ER worthy (fever, sore throat, hangnail, etc...) due to our friends that live off the system? Thats why something needs to be done.

5 grand as a start for a health care credit sounds pretty good to me. Given the fact many are on 5 thousand high deductible HSA's as we speak, with a $1,000 employee contribution and an employer 4,000. Couple that credit with competition driving down costs and letting us shop elsewhere for meds....We got something going for us and the only intervention was a monetary credit...All you have to do is take the initiative to find a plan and use the credit. Minimal intervention, and people have health care.

Health care is like d@mn near every other subject we discuss in relation to politics, government, and the economy.

We all agree something needs to be done. But this something for nothing principle that has polluted our society is killing us. What's the incentive to prepare yourself for a job with benefits if the government is going to hand you health care, rent, utilities, food, etc.? There isn't any.

Come on guys/gals....While this quote has questionable roots in history, it puts things into perspective at our current point in time...

"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves money from the public treasure. From that moment on the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most money from the public treasury, with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy followed by a dictatorship.

The average age of the world's great civilizations has been two hundred years. These nations have progressed through the following sequence: from bondage to spiritual faith, from spiritual faith to great courage, from courage to liberty, from liberty to abundance, from abundance to selfishness, from selfishness to complacency from complacency to apathy, from apathy to dependency, from dependency back to bondage.---Alexander Tyler"

I think we are on the same page for the most part Shocka, except on the $5K Credit for health care. I don't see how that is going to create competition and what I see happening is the health insurance costs actually rising in many sectors because all of a sudden they have access to this $5K that they may not have had before.
I am in a situation where I work for a very large corporation and some of our facilities have been able to negotiate some very fair insurance rates for many of us. I know good for me, but I believe that the $5K credit would jeapordize this reasonable cost I have. It may actually do the opposite of what you are hoping for by reducung the amount of competition. It's almost like price fixing driven by the government policy.

Maybe I am way off base with my assumptions, but I think it is something worth considering.

Maybe there should be a government controlled (I hate using that statement! ) baseline level for ALL Americans, but provide the option to supliment it with additional care and service of our choice. This may provide some competition where the health care system wants to lure you to purchase additional coverage and will be competative to do that. At least that way everyone gets some level of basic care and the people who can afford more/better are free to negotiate that as an addition.
I know it sounds easy when typed in a Forum but, just thinking out loud!

This is a good debate and one of the situation I would love to have a solution to!

shocka43 wrote:
I would be fairly bent out of shape if an American non-worker was afforded the same health care that we have to negotiate into our contract every 3 years in exchange for wages.
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I read this is the LA Times last week


http://www.latimes.com/features/health/ ... 9947.story

And people don't think about how much health care we could provide to an AMERICAN if we hadn't paid 500,000 grand to treat a person who is here ILLEGALLY and doesn't pay ANYTHING into OUR system.

shocka43 wrote:And people don't think about how much health care we could provide to an AMERICAN if we hadn't paid 500,000 grand to treat a person who is here ILLEGALLY and doesn't pay ANYTHING into OUR system.

I agree with that and it's not just the ones here illegally, it's the people who juct plain don't contribute! Welfare, etc. I think there should be a mandatory amount of work required for qualification for ANY health care even if it is community service work. I understand there are many people who can't find a job so make them do something productive until they can! It could save the cities and States a lot of money!